Transcript: 2026 GHAW Podcast Studio Chat - Cameron Munster, Dr Phil Harris, Sam Docherty
PHIL:
Hi guys, so I'm Phil. I'm a Consumer Neuroscientist and thanks for both of you joining me today.
You're both eminent in your field, so it'd be great to have a chat to you about the neuroscience of gambling.
SAM:
Has there ever been a time when you've been gambling where you found it really hard to stop?
CAMERON:
Ah yeah, look obviously I was with my mates on a bit of a race day and you know, they were winning and I wasn’t and I thought, you know what, I can; you know, get back and somehow find a way to win.
So, I think it's you know, kept getting on bets and making it bigger and bigger and unfortunately, I just got in a hole and couldn't come back from it.
SAM:
How much of our thoughts are conscious versus subconscious?
PHIL:
Not as much as you like to think actually.
So, before you're even aware of making decisions, your brain's already weighing up the options through this subconscious reward and value system.
CAMERON:
So what do you mean by that Phil?
PHIL:
Well, your brain is constantly asking what's good for me, what's worth my attention and it's doing that subconsciously.
CAMERON:
So, you'd be basically ranking it without even realising it.
PHIL:
Yeah, exactly. So, millions of years ago, we evolved this primitive reward system that's designed to drive our behaviour automatically without us even needing to think.
So, now we're stuck with that wiring. So, it's constantly assigning value to options around you and then nudging your behaviour and attention with bursts of feel-good dopamine.
So, as humans evolve, we wrap more advanced conscious thinking parts of our brain around that primitive system.
It's still there, we just don't realise it. Fact is, the much older reward system is easy to use and so we often default to using that as our automatic choice system.
SAM:
So, Phil, what's a real-world example of that?
PHIL:
Have you ever picked up your phone to reply to a message and then you -
CAMERON:
I get doom scrolling on my NFL fantasy and you know, looking at my trades and looking at my team and before I knew it, it was 20 minutes in.
PHIL:
Exactly. So your goal was to reply to a message and then your brain found something it valued more, and your attention followed and that all happened in seconds.
SAM:
This process is influencing more than just doom scrolling on our phone.
PHIL:
Yeah, every day. What you pay attention to, what you trust, what you buy, all the choices you make are being influenced by this reward system.
Once you get that's what's happening, it gives you the chance to make more intentional decisions.
SAM:
Yeah, I think that's part of my journey especially is around being able to have that conscious decision when you are sort of in by your own space to make your decision before you get into that version where you're chasing that reward all the time.
CAMERON:
So, what have you done to help yourself be more conscious about your decision-making?
SAM:
Yeah. Well, I generally take time before I go, if I'm going to the races or going to do something, I take time to think about what I'm willing to do.
And I know from a bet deposit, you can take breaks. I've used all sorts of the tools that, that are available to me, and I try to do that before I get in the moment of trying to chase that reward.
PHIL:
Yeah, exactly. So, you're doing it while you're still conscious and then not caught up in the heat of the moment.
SAM:
So, Phil, it's not about the logic and self-discipline.
PHIL:
Not at all. So, imagine your brain's got two advisers and one's about the future.
It's saying think about next month and the other one's holding this giant flashing sign saying get a reward right now.
CAMERON:
So, Phil, what you're saying is the guy with the flashing red sign wins.
PHIL:
Yeah, pretty often. So that's why possible reward today feels so much more important than a possible reward tomorrow.
So the chance of winning $50 right now can feel so much more important than paying the bills next week.
And on top of that, when that advisor's flashing that giant sign saying, ‘get a reward right now’, we also pay less attention to signals coming from another part of our brain that's flagging risky situations.
CAMERON:
Ah, when I definitely lost a fair bit of money or was losing, you could definitely tell I was really reactive with my family or reactive with my friends, things that weren't going my way. I'd kick cans.
Is that like the subconscious mind like telling me that or rewarding me of like, you know, when things are good, I'm good, but then when I'm bad, they're really bad.
That's really important to note because the reward system is really influenced by social cues, the displays of you being excited when you're winning or not so much when you're not doing so well.
SAM:
So, does that mean that we take our lead from other people?
PHIL:
Yeah, absolutely. So when we see people celebrating, engaged in activities where everyone's getting a buzz from the activity, the reward system’s reacting to that and then that in turn makes it more desirable for us.
CAMERON:
Yeah. So Phil, obviously it's not always about the winning. It's all about being around the boys or being around your friends and getting excited about it too, not just for yourself.
PHIL:
Yeah. Exactly. So immediate rewards and social influence are two things that the reward system is highly, highly influenced by.
And that's evolution just doing its thing.
SAM: And I definitely felt that obviously being at a football club, you’re around 46 players and you go out and enjoy yourselves and you can get really caught up in that excitement of everyone around you and sometimes without knowing, that can lead you down a pretty dark path.
CAMERON:
If you're winning you need to be able to be aware of blokes around you that are losing as well and not everyone’s winning at the same time.
So you know, you’re getting excited for yourself but you need to also be not selfish on your own self, and look to your mates, because someone else could be doing it tough around you.
I know it's very hard at times, but you know, with the mind, you know, sometimes you just fall into your own trap and worry about your own self.
PHIL:
And that can be incredibly hard to do to think about your mates because when the reward system's driving your behaviour, it tends to give you that tunnel vision where it's hard to actually look out for other people.
So, you need to interrupt and become a bit more conscious when you're thinking about your mates.
CAMERON:
So, Phil, what advice would you give, you know, guys that are out there punting?
How do I find cues or how do I find some of my mates might be quiet. Like, is there any advice that you'd give those guys or myself in that situation?
PHIL:
Yeah, that's a really good question. So when the reward system's driving your behaviour, the more it amps up, the more primitive responses you're starting to develop.
So keep an eye out for your heart rate going up and particularly tunnel vision.
So when the app or the machine is really your whole focus and nothing else exists, that's a warning sign for you to start thinking, hang on a minute, I better take a break perhaps and allow my conscious mind to jump in and start helping with some longer-term decisions.
SAM:
Phil, that's such great advice because it one, it helps me be able to kind of check myself. It also allows me to be able to look out for my mates, especially once I get to that conscious state to be able to look out for my friends and see how everyone else is going in the room.
It's a really helpful tip.
SAM:
How do I stop chasing the rewards?
PHIL:
Well, people need brakes as well as accelerators. So, a break acts like a circuit breaker. It interrupts the flow of those automatic decisions. Gives your brain a chance to zoom out and then weigh up your choices.
CAMERON:
Sam, have you got any other ways or any other tools or ideas that you, you know, you've had in your experience with, you know, with gambling?
I've tried a lot of things and I think that's the part - life's not linear. You never get everything right.
And across my journey I've taken breaks. I've had deposit limits. I've stopped gambling completely and I think giving myself space to understand what works, what doesn't work, trial, trial, error, fail.
I think that's been a big part of my journey to get myself to a point where I feel a lot healthier with what I'm doing now than what I used to.
And a lot of it was built off that guilt of post gambling and feeling that moment of getting it wrong, spurring that for change is what's really worked for me.
PHIL:
Yeah. So that's great to hear because we know that the reward system is compelling.
It's primitive and it's designed to guide us so automatically. It’s really hard almost to fight back against that driving your choices. So you being a lot more conscious about the way you're making decisions and setting yourself up is exactly what you need to be doing. So well done.
CAMERON:
You know, I really changed the way I saw life was because of my kids. I felt like I had a responsibility to, you know, give them the right path and that's not always going to work for someone else.
You know, my why was my kids and I wanted to be a better father for them. Is there any, was that the subconscious mind kicking in or is that something that it was just a driven thing being competitive?
PHIL:
Yeah. Gotcha. So, you found your unique solution to bring your conscious decision-making into the picture.
We're all wired differently. So everyone needs to find their own way of putting the brakes on that reward system.
Updated